FRom The STAR, frontpage, headlines only!
No sexy
dressing
Women workers in Kelantan
warned of stiff fines
And continued in page 3:
MPKB: Cover up or else
KOTA BARU: Women working in retail outlets and restaurants in Kelantan have been warned to mind their dressing or be prepared to face a fine.
The Kota Baru Municipal Council (MPKB) has announced that it would “no longer tolerate indecent dressing” by women, both Muslim and non-Muslim.
Public relations officer Mohd Azman Daham said that under local council by-laws women who “dressed sexily or indecently” could be fined up to RM500.
“Such outfits are prohibited here as it smears the reputation of Kota Baru and affects its status as an Islamic City,” he said in an interview.
He added that although punishment for indecent dressing was in place under the by-laws, it had not been totally enforced.
“But now, MPKB will no longer tolerate skimpy outfits, following mounting complaints from the public,” Mohd Azman said, adding that under the by-laws, women working in retail outlets should wear decent clothes.
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DESIDERATA:
From BN-controlled Malacca, the informal but endorsed by the Chief Minister Mat Skodeng, the disbanded squad has now been adopted by PAS-controlled Kelantan. Who says there is a big difference between UMNO and PAS? -- The gap is only in the small detail.
UMNO: If you agree with Us, SEmuaNya OK!
PAS: If you disagree with US, SEmuaNya KO!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"East is east
West is west
And the twain shall never meet"
Who was it who said the above? Mark Twain, or Rudyard Kipling?
On the eastern homefront, we still lose sleep and time and resources debating about personal attire in public, or vice versa -- public affairs in private. Whispering: "Do you know who that Senator was caught with in the hotel bathrobe one die?"
Or: "Look at the babe, she must have just come back from Arabia, totally eclipsed from the sun in her attired except for a slit for her eyes to peep at what's going on..."
DEsi thinks after the recent happenings involving many of the local municiapal councils antics and initiatives, NegaraKU can save lots of taxpapyers money by disbanding ALL THE COUNCILS except for the one in Furong*, as there are enough experienced civil servants who will ensure the government machinery functions on AUTO-PILOT like how the airpplane pilots leave the craft on AUTO as they adjourn to the JOhns to do "unofficial" business.
Which brings me to a current development from the Other end of the world. From the Western front,
Modern technology, Internet and media have really impacted on
Homo sapiens in funnny ways. Seem a li'l weird and scary though.
"I may spin "science" fiction story from this!", Desi told mGf as she travels from East to more Eastern for a holiday. For some lucky Malaysians, Christmas satrts on December Da First!:)
Tweens' are fast becoming the new teens
By MARTHA IRVINE, AP National Writer
Sat Nov 25, 6:46 PM ET
Zach Plante is close with his parents — he plays
baseball with them and, on weekends, helps with work
in the small vineyard they keep at their northern
California home.
Lately, though, his parents have begun to notice
subtle changes in their son. Among other things, he's
announced that he wants to grow his hair longer — and
sometimes greets his father with "Yo, Dad!"
"Little comments will come out of his mouth that have
a bit of that teen swagger," says Tom Plante, Zach's
dad.
Thing is, Zach isn't a teen. He's 10 years old — one
part, a fun-loving fifth-grader who likes to watch the
Animal Planet network and play with his dog and pet
gecko, the other a soon-to-be middle schooler who
wants an iPod.
In some ways, it's simply part of a kid's natural
journey toward independence. But child development
experts say that physical and behavioral changes that
would have been typical of teenagers decades ago are
now common among "tweens" — kids ages 8 to 12.
Some of them are going on "dates" and talking on their
own cell phones. They listen to sexually charged pop
music, play mature-rated video games and spend time
gossiping on MySpace. And more girls are wearing
makeup and clothing that some consider beyond their
years.
Zach is starting to notice it in his friends, too,
especially the way they treat their parents.
"A lot of kids can sometimes be annoyed by their
parents," he says. "If I'm playing with them at one of
their houses, then they kind of ignore their parents.
If their parents do them a favor, they might just say,
'OK,' but not notice that much."
The shift that's turning tweens into the new teens is
complex — and worrisome to parents and some
professionals who deal with children. They wonder if
kids are equipped to handle the thorny issues that
come with the adolescent world.
"I'm sure this isn't the first time in history people
have been talking about it. But I definitely feel like
these kids are growing up faster — and I'm not sure
it's always a good thing," says Dr. Liz Alderman, an
adolescent medicine specialist at Montefiore Medical
Center in New York City. She's been in practice for 16
years and has noticed a gradual but undeniable change
in attitude in that time.
She and others who study and treat children say the
reasons it's happening are both physical and social.
Bodies developing faster, studies show
Several published studies have found, for instance,
that some tweens' bodies are developing faster, with
more girls starting menstruation in elementary school
— a result doctors often attribute to improved
nutrition and, in some cases, obesity. While boys are
still being studied, the findings about girls have
caused some endocrinologists to lower the limits of
early breast development to first or second grade.
Along with that, even young children are having to
deal with peer pressure and other societal influences.
Beyond the drugs, sex and rock'n'roll their boomer and
Gen X parents navigated, technology and consumerism
have accelerated the pace of life, giving kids easy
access to influences that may or may not be
parent-approved. Sex, violence and foul language that
used to be relegated to late-night viewing and R-rated
movies are expected fixtures in everyday TV.
And many tweens model what they see, including common
plot lines "where the kids are really running the
house, not the dysfunctional parents," says Plante,
who in addition to being Zach's dad is a psychology
professor at Santa Clara University in California's
Silicon Valley.
He sees the results of all these factors in his
private practice frequently.
Kids look and dress older. They struggle to process
the images of sex, violence and adult humor, even when
their parents try to shield them. And sometimes, he
says, parents end up encouraging the behavior by
failing to set limits — in essence, handing over power
to their kids.
"You get this kind of perfect storm of variables that
would suggest that, yes, kids are becoming teens at an
earlier age," Plante says.
Natalie Wickstrom, a 10-year-old in suburban Atlanta,
says girls her age sometimes wear clothes that are "a
little inappropriate." She describes how one friend
tied her shirt to show her stomach and "liked to
dance, like in rap videos."
Girls in her class also talk about not only liking but
"having relationships" with boys.
"There's no rules, no limitations to what they can
do," says Natalie, who's also in fifth grade.
Her mom, Billie Wickstrom, says the teen-like behavior
of her daughter's peers, influences her daughter — as
does parents' willingness to allow it.
"Some parents make it hard on those of us who are
trying to hold their kids back a bit," she says.
So far, she and her husband have resisted letting
Natalie get her ears pierced, something many of her
friends have already done. Now Natalie is lobbying
hard for a cell phone and also wants an iPod.
"Sometimes I just think that maybe, if I got one of
these things, I could talk about what they talk
about," Natalie says of the kids she deems the
"popular ones."
It's an age-old issue. Kids want to fit in — and
younger kids want to be like older kids.
But as the limits have been pushed, experts say the
stakes also have gotten higher — with parents and
tweens having to deal with very grown-up issues such
as pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases.
Earlier this year, that point hit home when federal
officials recommended a vaccine for HPV — a common STD
that can lead to cervical cancer — for girls as young
as age 9.
"Physically, they're adults, but cognitively, they're
children," says Alderman, the physician in New York.
She's found that cultural influences have affected her
own children, too.
Mom, what is promiscuous?
Earlier this year, her 12-year-old son heard the
popular pop song "Promiscuous" and asked her what the
word meant.
"I mean, it's OK to have that conversation, but when
it's constantly playing, it normalizes it," Alderman
says.
She observes that parents sometimes gravitate to one
of two ill-advised extremes — they're either horrified
by such questions from their kids, or they "revel" in
the teen-like behavior. As an example of the latter
reaction, she notes how some parents think it's cute
when their daughters wear pants or shorts with words
such as "hottie" on the back.
"Believe me, I'm a very open-minded person. But it
promotes a certain way of thinking about girls and
their back sides," Alderman says. "A 12-year-old isn't
sexy."
With grown-up influences coming from so many different
angles — from peers to the Internet and TV — some
parents say the trend is difficult to combat.
Claire Unterseher, a mother in Chicago, says she only
allows her children — including an 8-year-old son and
7-year-old daughter — to watch public television.
And yet, already, they're coming home from school
asking to download songs she considers more
appropriate for teens.
"I think I bought my first Abba single when I was 13
or 14 — and here my 7-year-old wants me to download
Kelly Clarkson all the time," Unterseher says. "Why
are they so interested in all this adult stuff?"
Part of it, experts say, is marketing — and tweens are
much-sought-after consumers.
Advertisers have found that, increasingly, children
and teens are influencing the buying decisions in
their households — from cars to computers and family
vacations. According to 360 Youth, an umbrella
organization for various youth marketing groups,
tweens represent $51 billion worth of annual spending
power on their own from gifts and allowance, and also
have a great deal of say about the additional $170
billion spent directly on them each year.
Toymakers also have picked up on tweens' interest in
older themes and developed toy lines to meet the
demand — from dolls known as Bratz to video games with
more violence.
Diane Levin, a professor of human development and
early childhood at Wheelock College in Boston, is
among those who've taken aim at toys deemed too
violent or sexual.
"We've crossed a line. We can no longer avoid it —
it's just so in our face," says Levin, author of the
upcoming book "So Sexy So Soon: The Sexualization of
Childhood."
Earlier this year, she and others from a group known
as the Campaign for a Commercial-Free Childhood
successfully pressured toy maker Hasbro to drop plans
for a line of children's toys modeled after the
singing group Pussycat Dolls.
Other parents, including Clyde Otis III, are trying
their own methods.
An attorney with a background in music publishing,
Otis has compiled a line of CDs called "Music Talking"
that includes classic oldies he believes are
interesting to tweens, but age appropriate. Artists
include Aretha Franklin, Rose Royce and Blessid Union
of Souls.
"I don't want to be like a prude. But some of the
stuff out there, it's just out of control sometimes,"
says Otis, a father of three from Maplewood, N.J.
"Beyonce singing about bouncing her butt all over the
place is a little much — at least for an 8-year-old."
In the end, many parents find it tricky to strike a
balance between setting limits and allowing their kids
to be more independent.
Plante, in California, discovered that a few weeks ago
when he and Zach rode bikes to school, as the two of
them have done since the first day of kindergarten.
From moment to moment
"You know, dad, you don't have to bike to school with
me anymore," Zach said.
Plante was taken aback.
"It was a poignant moment," he says. "There was this
notion of being embarrassed of having parents be too
close."
Since then, Zach has been riding by himself — a big
step in his dad's mind.
"Of course, it is hard to let go, but we all need to
do so in various ways over time," Plante says, "as
long as we do it thoughtfully and lovingly, I
suppose."
__________________________________________
Martha Irvine is a national writer specializing in
coverage of people in their 20s and younger. She can
be reached at mirvin@ap.org
__________________________________________
DESIDERATA:
Is there a connection between Kelantan scene happening right before our eyes, and California development, instantly brought to our attention thanks to the Internet news?
I don't know if it's for the better or for the worse. Parents need to be kept informed.
That's only the starting point to making the decisions.
For other points, please attend Parenting Classes at the Malacca or Kelantan
neighbourhood squad kelas. To keep thee educated, something olde from the TV medium, so it could be fictional, but methinks it confirms the earlier AP report.~~
Followed by an A*Joke which is not sacriligeous because today is NOT Sundae!:(
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Last night, I watched an episode of Nip/Tuck on AXN. Not my regular fare though as I am only bought over by the critical thought-provoking SCI series. And of course, Moonlighting and Ally McBeal, more so because of the protagonists, but you don't want to know.
So beside the main story line about an ageing lady, after some seven jobs, wanting one last "job" done on her ugly looking knee "so that I can still flaunt my mini-shorts...", also on seeing reluctance on the doctors' part, pleaded to the surgeons that "I'm doing it for my daughter -- she's dying of cancer."
The side-story was one of the specialist doctors, happily married, returning one evening to be faced with the wife their eight-year-old in the bbath-room holding out a blood-stained underwear.
And pre-maturely, the couple had to initiate their baby" into the arrival at "puberty" ceremony where the eight-year-old given the title of "Princess" was crowned. A li'l like what bachelors do at a stage party before the wedding night.
(Ends here, and if you need to wonder why the abrupt end, I said earlier:~~Is there a connection between Kelantan scene happening right before our eyes, and California development, instantly brought to our attention thanks to the Internet news?)
The A*Joke start(le)s hear:
Priests Should Know Their Bible Well
Published by xblogger December 1st, 2006
A priest was driving along and saw a nun on the side of the road, he stopped and offered her a lift which she gladly accepted. She got in and crossed her legs, forcing her gown to open and reveal a lovely leg. The priest had a look and nearly had an accident.
After controlling the car, he stealthily slid his hand up her leg.
The nun looked at him and immediately said, “Father, remember psalm 129?”
The priest was flustered and apologized profusely. He forced himself to remove his hand. However, he was unable to remove his eyes from her leg. Further on, while changing gear, he let his hand slide up her leg again.
The nun once again said, “Father, remember psalm 129?”
Once again the priest apologized.
Arriving at the convent, the nun got out, gave him a meaningful glance and went on her way.
On his arrival at the church, the priest rushed to retrieve a bible and looked up psalm 129. It Said, “Go forth and seek;further up, you will find glory.”
MORAL OF THE STORY:
Always be well informed in your job;
or, you might miss great opportunities!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
At The Confessional one dark and un-sunny die,
DEsi told the pastor hard of 'earing:
"Yes,I had one such miss'd opportunity.
I gave a lass a lift down the kampoong road one evening.
I chicly said: You're beautiful, can I go beyond Lo-and-Behold?
She replied: Yes, I enjoy Behole-d but not BEYOND.
I then was a member of that pop group, so I miss'd the behole-ing."
God bless you, deer ER, my child
Behave thyself, now and all ways
I:
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12 comments:
u should take a look at this too.
EVEN SPORTS IS TOO SEXY FOR PAS... wonder if their ulamas r tempted to jerk off even while watching olympics/asian games female swimming events.
god help us if PAS rule malaysia (or similarly minded umno, since they r not that different from each other, except in minor details, as u said)...
http://harakahdaily.net/v061/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5546&Itemid=28
Bersukan bukan alasan untuk dedah aurat
Saidah Hairan
Tue | Dec 05, 06 | 04:14:32 AM
KUALA LUMPUR, 5 Dis (Hrkh) - Umat Islam digesa menjaga imej dengan tidak menggadaikan maruah agama dan diri apabila melibatkan diri dalam dunia sukan terutamanya dalam aspek pakaian para atlet.
Menurut Ketua Dewan Muslimat PAS, Ustazah Azizah Khatib Mat sudah sampai masanya pihak penganjur sukan dan peserta di peringkat antarabangsa dan dalam negara untuk mengenalkan serta meletakkan syarat pakaian sukan yang menutup aurat khususnya bagi wanita Islam.
Menurut beliau, pakaian sukan yang menutup aurat itu perlu dilaksanakan segera sejajar dengan semangat kemerdekaan umat Islam daripada kongkongan pemikiran, pengaruh dan cara hidup Barat.
Beliau berkata, tidak salah wanita Islam untuk menyertai sukan sama ada di peringkat negeri, kebangsaan dan seterusnya antarabangsa tetapi ia perlu memakai pakaian yang menutup aurat.
"Sudah tiba masanya pihak penganjur sukan perlu mengenalkan pakaian sukan menutup aurat bagi wanita supaya golongan lelaki yang menjadi pengurus atau penonton tidak ghairah ketika menonton acara sukan yang disertai wanita," katanya mengulas pakaian wanita Islam Iraq dalam sukan di Doha ketika ini.
Beliau berharap wanita Islam sepatutnya menjadi tauladan kepada bangsa lain sama ada dari sudut pakaian atau penampilan khususnya ketika menyertai sukan.
"Jangan kerana mengejar kilauan emas dan ganjaran, kita perlu mengadaikan maruah agama dan diri ini,"katanya. - mks.
I read about the sexy ruling this morning in the papers. I will spare you my initial response because I don't think you'll appreciate a generous sprinkling of flowery stuffs on your blog. :-)
After that, I think to myself. THis party is either
1) The real thing (for God)
2) Stupid
What real thing u might ask? They must be really a God abiding party to throw away a golden political opportunity. Lately, UXXO has been especially silly and managed to rouse the anger of the nation. Any 'sensible' opposing political party would seize this wave and ride on it. No sire. Not this one. SO I can only come to the conclusion they're really all for their God. They don't care for missed 'opportunities' to get votes.
On the other hand, of course there is always the possibility they're just plain stupid.
I wonder which?
"MPKB: Cover up or else"
that's right...close one eye la...haha
PAS = Please Act Stupid
OMG, such ridiculous rules!
If that's the case, I can forget bringing my summer clothes back.
I wonder, would they later say high heels would be inappropriate too?
Fikiran kolot, jika diteruskan, kenalah tutup dua mata. Gah.
juslo:
I hope you did NOT cook up this nu'es from PAS femail leader -- it's NOT nyet April 1!
BUT since you mentioned the leader referring to Doha games, which I know are in progress, it must be true and thorough on you part, so any of my ER reading this pls T'anke "juslo" fro educating Us -- you know what to do sext GE2008/09, yes?
For some UNpatriotik Msians outa dare with no inkling what we are yakking about, in brief,Ustazah Azizah Khatib Mat wants Malaysian athletes of the Islam faith to be "appropriately covered up" ala host Doha women so that "you gatal guys won't be enticed beyong LO-and-behold to somewhere Beyond". If DEsi's paraphrase is off track, blame that I was a poor student of the BM teacher (remembering here, she was dressed ahead of her time ... she might be stoned if she visited Doha for the Games, butt I'd defend her honour the bestA I can!:)
helen:
you underestimate (don't write from below, Ipoh is above Furong rite?) Desis's penchant for flowery lingo-or-cum! ~~"...Idon't think you'll appreciate a generous sprinkling of flowery stuffs ..."
I think PAS is stewpid -- swelling from a thick head just because other Oppo parties helped it win Kelantan and Terengganu in 1999, then it LOST Terengganu back to BN in 2994. Methinks if it does not get a head transpalnt, it will LOSE Kelantan coming GE unless
Now, you did NOT reciprocate my generosity with your telling miss'd/"mr-ed oso cun "opportunity!:)
freelunch2006:
Close one eye now
Cometh2020: we hace Three eyes ~~ Barisan Nasional is overthrown by new Opposition Coalition.
Presnt dilemma:
How to make PAS change its Islamic platform; othervice, no go with DAP plus Us non-Muslim citizens as Religion must never be mixed up with Politics or affairs of Da State.
Poltics-Religion is more explosive than Poltics-Race as with BN-race-based politics, but we have stood some 5 decades of this nonsense and not getting near-Developed Status.
So my dear ER and esp freelunch2020 ~~ How to speed up the Opposition Coalition? First act should the BN government be replaced is "Free Lunches for all living below R2,000-per-month-in- wages households + senior citizens, how about that?:)
twisted heels:
Be carefool in your head-to-toe attire, don't stumble and fall, Cos according to PAS rules, Desi can't catch&hold thee, even in an emergency.
There was once this story of such a doctor who refused to use her hand to touch a patient (mail, I presume) to feel his pulse. She did it with a pen-sil!
What sext -- Desi can't serenade the Moon with "A Time For Us" ala Romeo & Julia?
THeels, bring back your thick Winter clothings should thee wish to visit blogger f'iends in Kota Baru/NYama!:(
Furong is steal Okay, we can walk around town holding hands, even female-mail-cum-in-tweens!
desiderata,
i kid u not, mate...
check out the web address i gave u -- but only if u r not a PAS ulama, because u might get turned on by the photo there, which is a VERY SEXY, HOT photo of 2 SHAMELESS iraqi athletes who exposed their flesh n sold out their religion in the name of sports... (SLUTS!!!!!)
here's my not-so-good translation of the harakah report, for the benefit of all your english-reading readers:
"Doing Sports is No Reason for Exposing Aurat (Body/FLESH/MEAT)?!?!"
the muslim ummah r urged to preserve the image of n not sell out the dignitiy of religion n self when being involved in the sporting world especially in the aspect of athletes' dress.
according to the head of PAS women (wanita?), ustazah sports-is-too-sexy-for-me-who's-too-holy, the time has come for sports organisers n participants at international n domestic levels to introduce n lay down sports wear conditions which cover up the FLESH/MEAT especially for muslim women.
according to her holiness, sports wear which covers the FLESH/MEAT should be implemented immediately in line with the spirit of independence of the muslim ummah from western control of thought, influence n lifestyle.
her holiness said, it's not wrong for muslim women to participate in sports whether at the state, national n subsequently on the international level but she should wear dress which covers the FLESH/MEAT.
"the time has come for sports organisers should introduce sports wear which cover up the FLESH/MEAT for women so that the men who become manager (of sports team?) or spectators do not become 'ghairah' (amazed? horny?? turned on?? not sure about the exact meaning, but u can pretty much guess it from the context) when watching sporting events participated by women," she said when commenting on the dress of Iraqi muslim women in sports at Doha now.
her holiness hopes that muslim women should be the role model for other races whether from the angle of dress or 'penampilan' (action?? not sure) especially when participating in sports.
"don't sell out the honour of religion n self just because we r chasing gold n (sporting honour)," she said.
while we r at it, here r some other 'related' news from harakah, the voice of PAS. (i'm only translating parts of them, u should check out the original texts for full details...)
1, Semangat merdeka: Wanita Islam merindui kompleks sukan tertutup
Saidatul Amani
Fri | Sep 01, 06 | 03:28:48 AM
http://harakahdaily.net/v061/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4051&Itemid=28
Spirit of Independence: Muslim Women Misses/Long For Closed Sports Complex
...the closed sports complex should be built to ensure the safety n comfort of muslim women who r doing sports without any disturbance from men who r not related (to the women).
...the malaysian government should follow the example of IRAN which has successfully organised closed women sports without a single male spectator n malaysia has also sent her athletes.
...she suggested to Menteri Belia dan Sukan, Dato' Azalina Othman to immediately build closed sports complex for women instead of building sports complex in england.
"we muslim women who r wearing tudung very much want to learn swimming because the sports of swimming n riding horses r encouraged by islam, n swimming has a lot of health benefits," she said.
according to her, muslim women who wear tuding very much miss/long for a sports complex which could protect their aurat n honour from them becoming the viewing objects of unrelated male.
2, Kelantan negeri pertama perkenal pakaian sukan cara Islam
Wajdi Mayusoh
Mon | Jan 16, 06 | 04:00:00 PM
http://harakahdaily.net/v061/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=429&Itemid=28
Kelantan is the first state to introduce sports wear of the Islamic way
Kelantan is expected to become the first state in the country to introduce dress which fulfils the requirements of religion for football players.
...(some government big shot said) "the state government wishes to become an example n model for other states n to prove that dress which closes aurat is not a bar to athletes to progress in sports."
..."this also is to prove that kelantan is very committed to ensure that the policy of 'Develop together with Islam' continues to be realised in the administration of the government including related to sports," he said at the launching ceremony of Dato’ Menteri Besar Cup Championship, here recently.
3, Sukan Wanita Kelantan jadi acara tahunan
Salmah Mat Husain
Tue | Sep 19, 06 | 08:38:10 AM
http://harakahdaily.net/v061/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4356&Itemid=47
Kelantan Women Sports becomes Annual Event
kelantan might b the first state in this country which 'mempelopori' (organise?) sports especially for women following islamic requirements.
the main characteristics which have been stipuated r that every player must wear dress which covers the aurat n the playing courts r organised in a closed manner for that group only.
-- so, how u people like a PAS ISLAMIC UTOPIA???
god save malaysia...
Before condemning PAS, I just wonder anyone ask this question :
Who give the municipal rights to do that?
WTF OKT doing? This is something under the local housing development ministry. Oh wait, he can't, not before getting instruction from his Taiko and not stepping into corrupted municipal councils such as MPK,MPSJ, MP....
juslo: Danke, for visiting with more nu'es! I graduated it to frontpage and we'll see if WE CAN BOTH COLLECT some bounty, voluptious ones also cun!:) Sis Helen, pls don't get jeles!:(
moo_t:
Long given up on the MCA -- it's good for Welfarism issues, like paying respects to Couple in suicide-murder case; Ah Long-long-ling-lang cases flagging even more publicity for Latuk Chong (NO relation of mine!)
You think these guys do it for Free? Minus the Datuk/Latin, Tan Si and Tonneships, then I believe-lah!:(
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